Sent 315 Podcast - Episode 6

Listening to Their Story

Intro: 00:01

Welcome to Sent 310. We're here to encourage and equip Christians to engage in the adventure of sharing Jesus, those that God puts into their life. And we're so glad you're here. Hey, welcome back, everybody, for you lifetime subscribers. And for those of you who are here for the very first time, welcome to Sent 315. I'm Kevin Miller.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 00:25

And I am Sarah Mayne.

Kevin Miller: 00:27

There you go and running the whole thing.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 00:29

I'm the producer.

Kevin Miller: 00:30

Yeah. Really?

Sarah Marie Mayne: 00:31

Yeah. I am.

Kevin Miller: 00:33

And what's Matt Hall do?

Matt Hall: 00:34

Oh, I'm back here in the back room. In the cupboard.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 00:36

Yeah, we just keep him in the back.

Kevin Miller: 00:39

We really don't know what Matt does. But it's technical. And he has got 1000 cables hanging over his head. We should put that on the Instagram page.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 00:48

Yeah, I think they call him the sound engineer. I think that's what we call him.

Kevin Miller: 00:52

Yes or sir.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 00:52

Anyways, we're glad to be here today. And we're glad to have you listening in wherever you're listening in from. Let us know where you're from.

Kevin Miller: 01:01

Yeah. We'd love to hear from you. How can they get that to us?

Sarah Marie Mayne: 01:03

Instagram sent_ 315. And also rating and reviewing.

Kevin Miller: 01:09

Please.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 01:09

You can put your thing there. You can email us too at info@sent315.org.

Kevin Miller: 01:15

And I'd really love to get questions.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 01:17

Yes. We want to do a question episode soon.

Kevin Miller: 01:20

Yeah. And then people can go, you told them to do what. That's why there's two or three of us here.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 01:25

We want part two, where you guys ask questions about the responses we said.

Kevin Miller: 01:30

Yeah. And the conversation goes on which quite frankly, I have to admit, I love conversation.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 01:37

Me too.

Kevin Miller: 01:38

I love having conversations with you here like we're doing today, and other times. Conversations are so unique. People have different perspectives. They're in different places in their life. And the episodes that we have that are just conversations, I think are my favorite ones. Mostly because I'm not listening to me talk. I went on a backpacking trip, I did five peaks over about several days, maybe a week. And my favorite part about it was I didn't have to listen to myself talk. Wow, I'm free.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 02:11

That's great. And I think that's a good intro because we are talking about listening today.

Kevin Miller: 02:17

Right, which is part of conversation. An important part.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 02:21

Yes it is. So Kevin, who is the best listener that you know.

Kevin Miller: 02:26

I really, really thought about this for this episode. And I thought about conversations that I've had. And it was interesting, because at first I just kept thinking about people I like to listen to and suggestions that people have made about listening and stuff, really cool stuff. But then I started thinking, okay, so who do I think is really listening when I'm in conversation with them and the top of the list that I came up with so far is Danny Eslinger. Now, Danny Eslinger is the head of counseling at Foothills Christian Church. And every conversation I have ever had with him I really looked him in the eye and went, this guy is listening to me, I better be careful.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 03:09

Freaked you out a little bit. It was abnormal.

Kevin Miller: 03:11

Yeah, because I mean, come on, most people are on to the next question. They didn't even hear your whole sentence. And we have to get better at listening. It's really, really critical, especially when it comes to sharing our faith. Because if we're not listening to the other person, how far are we going to get? So, we're going to be talking about that today. So, I've got Danny Eslinger. You tell me now who's your best listener and why?

Sarah Marie Mayne: 03:33

I would say, probably my mom. She's a really good listener, at least to me. She's very good. You can tell that she is engaged and paying attention to what you're actually saying. And I think my aunt is like that, too. She listens very well. And she is reading your face and what you're saying. And you can tell she's just engaged to see. And she's also expressive. Both of them are. But you can kind of get a read on how they're reacting, which it's fun for me.

Kevin Miller: 04:07

And there's more than just dead silence when somebody is listening. This is a really practical episode for sure because we really want to help and get better ourselves. Then want to go over to a different type of listener. And he probably taught Danny how to listen to a large extent. But it's Mark Hoffman.

Tell you my conversations with Mark, I know he's listening by the questions that he ask. And sometimes for clarity, or sometimes it's just a different perspective. So, I know he's present. I know he's not somewhere else. He's not looking at his watch. And he's the kind of person that I don't feel like I get enough conversation time with them. So, that's good. You want to meet people that they want more of, right?

Sarah Marie Mayne: 04:53

Definitely.

Kevin Miller: 04:54

And so, he's taught me some things about listening and especially with the interactive questions and stuff.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 05:00

One thing that's important when we're listening is, when you talk about Mark asking you questions he's seeking to understand, and to see what you actually think. And I think sometimes we have to be careful when we're sharing our faith. Because sometimes we can come at it with, I need to get this person saved, I need to get this person saved, where can I drop Jesus and the gospel and heaven and hell, and eternity and..... And that's what your brain is doing.

hat's hard for me [inaudible:: 05:46

Kevin Miller: 06:13

I think one important thing for me when I'm picking this is my favorite listener, this my best listener, think it's the kind of person I want to be. And that is when I'm having a conversation with somebody that they feel heard. This gift of time that we have, which is very finite. When you're spending that with someone, when you're present, you're choosing that, and they know that they're heard, there's a whole lot of respect and love that comes across. It's a classic example in the Bible. And we've heard it a bunch of times. And I reread it, when something just jumps in, it comes alive.

to the Lord. And so, in Luke: 10:38

But the Lord replied to her, and just hear his tone, Martha, Martha, you're worried and bothered and anxious about so many things. But only one thing is necessary for Mary has chosen the good part, that which is to her advantage, which will not be taken away from her. Now, that's out of the amplified so it's a little bit fuller version and digging into it more. As I was reading a devotional that I went through recently, that sheets went over what that word implies that she was listening.

And it doesn't just mean she was standing there, doing nothing, and not interrupting, it means that she was hearing and understanding. And she knew she was assimilating, and she was getting it. Well, I want that. You know what I want to know and understand what God's saying to me. And it says in the amplify, it was to her advantage. And so, I think that's really, really critical. We have got to spend time listening to the Lord, we have to have special time, secret time, time away from everything.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 09:00

Something that I've been challenging myself with, when it comes to listening to others, is accepting where they're at currently, that's really directly related to our relationship with God. There's the word acceptance, which for some Christians is like, oh, no, that word is wrong. It's connected to tolerance and ahh.

Kevin Miller: 09:24

Celebration of sin.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 09:27

And that's not what I'm talking about here. But acceptance really is important when it comes to listening. If that's a buzzword to someone listening to hearing right now. Then just think of how Jesus accepts us. And when we get a hold of how he really accepts us how, when he met us, wherever we were, when we first noticed that he was there.

Kevin Miller: 09:57

While we were yet sinners.

Kevin Miller: 09:59

Yeah, for sure. And he doesn't smack Martha around either, even though she's coming in to the rabbi and telling them off and saying, come on. Like I said, I could hear his tone is that tone of Martha, Martha. He loves her. He loves Martha.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 09:59

Yes. Wherever we are. And even now, as Christians, we have times of why I'm putting up with this I, I'm so screwed up right now, I need your help. And he still always comes at us with full acceptance, full understanding, full love. And that's the place where he moves us into a better future, into making better decisions. The word says that it's his kindness that leads us to repentance. And so, when we really get a hold of that acceptance, and we're diving into that on the daily from the Lord, and we're flowing out of that, we can have so much acceptance and love and grace and understanding. And we can see other people as well.

And I think if we don't have that with the Lord, it's really hard to not bring all our other ideas and what we think and our pre-decided decisions about a way someone is because they said one thing and we determine they're in this whole other category. But we have to be diving into that. And I love even in the story with Jesus and Mary, and Martha, women weren't allowed to learn the scriptures in this time period. They didn't go to school like the boys did, and go and learn the Torah and all this stuff.

And so, Mary recognized, here's this guy who wants to teach me about God in a deeper way than I've ever had an opportunity before. And that's his acceptance of her and not allowing that his culture said you couldn't do that as a woman. And she was like, oh, I'm going to step into this and embrace. I want to get everything because he accepts me. There's that vibe going on underneath there.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 12:12

Yeah. And I think Martha, I think she changed and started listening. Because when you go to Lazarus, and the story, what she says to Jesus, she's got that deeper understanding of Scripture now. And so, she obviously was listening.

Kevin Miller: 12:28

Yeah, if you would have been here. Jesus gives us an example of his listening abilities too which is a different one. And it's funny. I can't remember who I heard teach this originally to me, but it sure stuck. And it's when Jesus is in a caravan, and Mary loses him. She's looking all over for him, and everything. Three days later in Luke 2:46, which is kind of the idea for this whole podcast. It says, then, after three days, they found him in the temple sitting in the midst of the teachers. And so, many people think that he's just starts off and he's teaching because he's the teacher, but he's a youth intricate. And it says that he was both listening to them, and asking them questions. And then all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. So, he was listening and asking questions.

So, Jesus gave us this pattern, which is really, really critical. And in conversation, when you give somebody the respect, and you start asking them questions based on what they said to you, all of a sudden, I believe you've earned the right to be heard. And so, they ask you questions that they would have never asked you before. Like, what's your church like? But it's not with the agenda. It's just, get lost in the conversation, ask those questions. There's this big Harvard study that I ran across. That was how everybody thinks that they're really good listener, and they're not.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 13:56

Yeah, I'll admit when you said, who's the best listener you know, when you asked that? My brain just said me. And I was like, that's not right. But yes.

Kevin Miller: 14:08

And who's the humblest person you know?

Sarah Marie Mayne: 14:09

Definitely not me. Not me.

Kevin Miller: 14:10

Not you. Okay. You know, we have to take a sober estimation of ourselves. When you and I were talking about putting this together, I've got all sorts of research. And I've got all sorts of... one of the books that had an impact on me is by a PhD, Michael Nichols. It's called The Lost Art of Listening. And I think it's on its third version now. And out of the second version, he's got a quiz in there page 91. Maybe not. But you can check that book out. And online there are all sorts of tests where you can get a sober estimation of yourself and say, is this me? Is this me? Another shortcut, go ask people that tell you the truth.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 14:52

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Because I was looking we have a test here, which you can find on our website after this episode. I wanted to say, to encourage people to do it with somebody else, and do it to someone that you struggle with communicating the most.

Kevin Miller: 15:11

Don't say, I know who you're going to say, okay, go ahead.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 15:13

For me, my dad, and I. I love you, dad. He's listening right now. I love him so much. But we struggle to communicate with each other. And we are still always learning how to listen to each other. And I was looking at this quiz. And I was like, if I did this with my friend, or with this person, I'd probably do alright, pretty good. Maybe, sometimes. But if I did it with my dad. And so, that shows me where I'm really at, that I've got a long way to go in growing and listening.

Because I think that's a challenge. If you can listen to the person, that there's a little more for lack of a better term conflict where you just have... you don't always see things the same. Like my dad and I, we get along in a lot of ways. And then there's other areas where we just don't see the same way. When I can learn to listen to him really well. I'll get a lot better at listening to everybody else.

Kevin Miller: 16:09

Absolutely true. And so really that little quiz that you can check out on the website, have somebody else take it for you. Like you're saying people that you have trouble with. And I have that same situation. You know what, there's some of these 10 questions we're talking about. And I only want to go over a couple of them. But you had a couple that you said, yeah, that's one I have to focus on. So, which one of these questions that you have to ask yourself, do you want to share?

Sarah Marie Mayne: 16:35

Number nine, which was do I focus on others and my responses? Or do I give in to the temptation to approach their situation from my own limited perspective? Am I humble enough to realize my experience might not work for them? I think that's one that I struggle with. Because I think as Christians we care about God's reality. We care about truth. And so, a question like that can come off right off the bat, like, oh, you're saying, I have to accept their truth. I have to be about their truth in order to listen. And that's not really what it's about. But it's about putting yourself on pause, and being humble and saying, I don't know everything. I'm not God. I have a relationship with God. But that does not make me God, that does not make me all knowing and omniscient, like he is.

And so, I need to put what I think about something on pause for a few moments to hear somebody. And I need to pray like you were talking about and ask the Lord, what can I say? Do I say anything? Because sometimes it goes, you're just hearing. And you're just asking questions. And so, just being humble in that and sitting. Even when you think you know something, realize that maybe I don't. Maybe I've got this whole thing wrong in this way. And you don't have to be afraid of that. Because you do believe in God's truth, because you do stand with Him in His Word. And so, they're not going to mess up your thinking or mess you all up. But you can learn something, and there can be this beautiful moment. And that's something I'm working on.

Kevin Miller: 18:23

I got to tell you, I think it even gets harder as you get older. People may not know this, but I'm a wee bit older than you. This might be somewhere where your dad's coming from I don't know. He's not quite as old as me. I don't think. But we're peers for sure.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 18:40

I won't say, he would be upset.

Kevin Miller: 18:43

But the thing is, is we have so much life experience that you really should hear about and nothing fly, right? Because we've got it figured. Because we've made so many mistakes. And my Lord, we should put them to work for somebody else. It's so funny. One of the most profound things that I have ever heard was from my grandson. His name is Jace. And this was several years ago. He's cruising towards being a teenager soon. But he was about five. And he said to his grandmother, Grandma, I know a lot of stuff. But most of it's wrong.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 19:20

I love that.

Kevin Miller: 19:20

I love it too. And there's a lot of adults who really should think about that for themselves. Because they know a lot of stuff but most of it might be wrong. I get real education from my grandchildren. I have hundreds and hundreds it seems like and I talk about them all the time. And I have two or three of them right now that are hard to understand. They're just really young, and they're really articulate, but you can't understand what they're saying. Because it's [unintelligible: 19:46] too, right?

I know that number seven I'm guilty of with my grandchildren and I don't want to do that. And it says when I don't understand something or haven't heard clearly, do I stop and ask for a repeat of what they've said or do I fake it, and let them continue hoping to catch on later? So, how many times have I said to one of my grandkids? Oh, really. And just keep going, because I have no idea what my little grandson just said. And I think that's important. And that's what I was talking about that Mark does. For clarity, you couldn't possibly mean this, could you? And then we get down to something that has a lot more clarity in our conversation. So, that's really the one that I focus on.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 20:27

I know, something I've done. I did this with you recently is we were in a big meeting, and you said something that kind of triggered me in a certain way. And I started to assume what you meant. And then I realized, wait, I know Kevin, I need to go ask him.

And so, I did. I went and I asked you, and you explained, and then it was cool. And I think sometimes we need to do that with other people in our lives. We'll hear something or you'll hear about someone from somebody else. And part of listening is going wait, I'm going to go ask this question and seek to understand

Kevin Miller: 21:05

You know at first when we were talking about this, I thought, okay, so this is such a simple, practical, and we got to get better at it thing. But there's something really powerful. Because when we are present when we are listening, number one, we're showing that we really care, because we're busy. Life is hectic paced. So, when you choose to be with someone and be present, and really do these active listening things, where you're really interacting with them and you don't have an agenda and you're not just trying to push your own ideas and everything. Then you're just showing that you care, and that undoes a lot of barriers with people when they just know you care.

I've got a quote from Diedrich Bonhoeffer, I always feel like it makes me sound really smart that I know Diedrich Bonhoeffer stories, right? He is an amazing man. But he said something on listening that really drove it home for me. He said, “The first service that one owes to others in the fellowship, consistent listening to them. Just as love to God begins with listening to his word so the beginning of love for the brethren, is learning to listen to them. It is God's love for us that He not only gives us His word, but also lends us his ear.”

And here's the incredible Creator of the Universe, and he cares enough to want to hear from us, and to listen to us, and to actually answer us. So, in our effort to be more like Him, be more like Jesus, listening to each other, in this body of Christ, where we have so many different flavors of us and things that we know absolutely to be the truth, and can have. Maybe conversations, maybe arguments, all that, that we can show love by truly listening and trying to understand and trying to be inside the other person's head a little bit, and all of that. Is we do that with our brothers and sisters doing that, even more importantly, to those who are not in relationship with us who are maybe far from God.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 23:09

I think it's important to remember, it just hit me as you were reading that, when the first sin, first big whoops. Oops, happened in humanity. And God showed up, he asked a question, because he wanted to hear from them. And that's God, who knew all of it, when he saw the whole thing happen. And yet he invited them to have conversation with him in that moment. And I just think that's important for us to remember. And so, beautiful.

And one thing that I always enjoy and love about having a relationship with God is that he asked me questions. He wants to know what's going on, even though he knows. In high school, I'd be like what, you already know. But there's something about, he wanted me to share with him. And so, in doing that, there's this beauty. And there's also things that come out. I find when I sit down and I pray, and we're having a conversation about what I'm feeling. Then revelation comes about what's really going on.

Kevin Miller: 24:18

Yeah, I think the Lord asked us questions because he wants us to know. Sometimes things come out of our mouth and we go, really, wait a minute. And we ponder it more. I just want to encourage everybody that's listening to work and practice and prioritize listening. And one little challenge, I think would be cool, is to start a conversation with somebody that's different than you. And really, really listen to them and see where that adventure goes.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 24:46

Yeah, it's fun.

Kevin Miller: 24:48

Okay, well, that's it. I think everybody's lives are changed. They all know how to listen now. And that's so good. And maybe they think that they know a lot of stuff, but some of it's wrong.

Sarah Marie Mayne: 24:59

But yeah. We've got the listening quiz up on the website. So, you can go on there and find it. Did we already talked about how to connect with us?

Kevin Miller: 25:08

Yeah, and remember on that listening quiz, have Sarah's dad do yours. And remember, you are sent.